Transcript

On December 13th, 2003, early hours of the morning, Delta Force captured the one guy I believe knew where Saddam Hussein was. He was the ace of spades at the time.

This is Eric Maddox, a retired army ranger, linguist, and interrogator whose work was pivotal in capturing Saddam Hussein.

Did you catch what he just said? It's 2003 and they've just captured the one guy who knew where the deposed Iraqi dictator was hiding. They brought him to me. I interrogated him. And in two hours, the one man Saddam trusted to never give up his location looks at me and said, “Eric, I know where he is, but we got to go right now.” And that's how they found Saddam Hussein.

How does this even happen? When the stakes are this high, when so much is on the line, how does a person who is deemed to be an enemy become, in the space of two hours, a member of your team? Well, this is exactly what we are going to uncover in this final episode of season 2.

Welcome to Leading Outward, the Arbinger Institute podcast, where we explore the tools and ideas that we've used for over 45 years to help people solve their toughest leadership and organizational challenges by leading with an outward mindset—seeing people as people. I'm Mitch Warner.

Eric Maddox:

In 2003, I was deployed to Iraq with the Joint Special Operations Command and assigned to a Delta Force team in Tikrit, Iraq. I was trained as an interrogator, but I’d never actually done wartime interrogations. Because I’d graduated from the Army's Ranger School, they said, “Hey, this interrogator, even though he doesn’t know Arabic, he can go out with this Delta Force team.” They didn’t think Saddam Hussein was in Tikrit. The CIA case officer was injured and sent out of the country, and the CIA was so convinced Saddam was not in this little town that they didn’t even replace the guy. The most important man in Iraq, and in the town where he was captured, when the agent got injured, they didn’t replace him. I start being their interrogator and immediately it’s very clear: everything I was taught in the interrogation world was not going to work.

It was about a zero-sum game, intimidation—“you will confess because we know everything about you.” The whole purpose was to remove all hope from the prisoner. But that wasn’t going to work, because this wasn’t a battlefield, these weren’t uniformed enemy combatants. I realized, “How do I get these people to talk? If I can get them to open a dialogue, when I put my biases behind me, seek to understand—that’s when they really open up.” Suddenly, I realized—it’s not just a technique, it’s a mindset. And this mindset changes the influence of everything we do.

Now the prisoners start opening up. They start telling me about the insurgency, and most importantly, they say, “Eric, we want to help you track down Saddam Hussein.” On December 13th, 2003, Delta Force captured the one guy I believed knew where Saddam was. They brought him to me. I interrogated him. And in two hours, the one man Saddam trusted to never give up his location looks at me and says, “Eric, I know where he is, but we’ve got to go right now.” He didn’t just tell us—he wanted to go with us to show us the spot. He took the Delta Force team to the exact spider hole outside the house—and that’s how they found Saddam Hussein.

Mitch Warner:

As remarkable as a story like this is, when I hear something like this with only this level of detail, it honestly feels like magic. That is so cool, but I have no clue how to replicate it. So, today we want to dive into the nitty-gritty, the behind the scenes, to understand how this happened—not just what happened—and to figure out what are the steps, what are the elements of a recipe that any of us could follow to achieve similar results in any situation.

For me, that starts with understanding who Eric is himself. We’re all unique, right? If someone asks, “Hey Eric, what do you consider your talent?”—he says his talent is being an empty-base listener, to look at a situation and wonder, “This isn’t right. But why?”

Eric Maddox:

When I got to Iraq, I’d never been to a war zone before. We were manhunting. Saddam Hussein’s the ace of spades. I’m an interrogator. I got there and quickly realized: they don’t know where Saddam is. There’s not some smart group of people who know anything about where he is. Why?

This is a level of curiosity that is rare: to enter a situation where experts have been at work and not assume they have all the answers. The truth is, none of us have all the answers.

What would it take to enter a situation, any situation, and not be lulled into the false belief that what is happening must be what is supposed to happen? Part of what enables me to do what I do is this relentless asking of “why?” Saddam had a deck of playing cards—his regime. After the war, he sent them all away. He was hiding in Tikrit, alone, but we chased the deck, the chain of command, thinking the higher we go, the closer we get.

But I had to trust the people closest to the problem. Prisoners have agency—they’ll only tell me what they want to tell me, if they want to.

Mitch Warner:

This curiosity also means humility is needed—respecting the fact that the people closest to the truth are most likely to have answers, and they have agency. You can’t assume what anyone wants or needs—you need to ask them.

Eric Maddox:

Post WW2, our strategy was to have spies in strong urban areas, blending in, gathering information. In war zones, that wasn’t possible. I realized we didn’t have the capability to gather information from informants—we didn’t know how to penetrate these small towns. We needed to find who did, and listen.

In Saddam’s hometown, I realized there was an insurgency—a little family of bodyguards. The top bodyguard in the family gained huge power since the war; before, he was a nobody, now he’s the most powerful man in the Sunni triangle. Why?

You just do the math—the only way you see this is by clearing your mind of preconceived notions, inaccurate intelligence.

These biases are the biggest impediment to real listening. When we’re convinced we know, why would we ask to learn more?

Solutions only become obvious when we see the situation free of preconceived notions. That’s critical not just for war, but anywhere we find ourselves at odds, even in business negotiations.

David White: (Superior Paving, Gainesville, Virginia)

We were buying a plant with two silos, but only one was approved. The community didn’t want us there. How do we influence? How do we have meaningful conversations? We thought the right thing was to get the silo approved the right way, so the town could come out and see—there’s a lot at stake.

The first planning commission meeting came, and the community showed up, very upset. There was a lack of understanding about what an asphalt plant is and does. It came down to communication.

Mitch Warner:

While Eric intuited an outward approach in his first assignment, David’s approach to this business challenge was guided by Arbinger’s influence pyramid. At the top of the pyramid is correcting. That’s the default—fix it, help. But when the need for correction is obvious, it’s easy to start there. The influence pyramid shows you must go to the next level down: teach and communicate. Below that: listen and learn.

David White:

At the planning commission, people were upset—some left, some I met outside and they were open to more conversation. There was one lady, really fired up, who took off. I asked others if it’s okay for me to reach out to her. She was willing to talk, and she educated me.

When we move from insisting on educating others to really listening, we get educated. Receiving feedback isn’t easy—you have to care about the person, about what they have to say. Having a glimpse into their experience made me want to be part of the solution.

I said, “We’re going to be relentless, we’ll partner with you, and uphold integrity.” It started with one member on the council—I met with him, learned more about the community, the struggles before. He said, “These are people you’ll need to know.” Reached out to community members, especially those upset. Addressed their concerns about sound, dust, but especially odor—the prevailing winds blow toward the neighborhood. She wished she could open her windows and have coffee, but couldn’t because of the smell. I got excited about odor-mitigating technologies.

But David understood the way the community would respond to his solution depended on listening and learning—beneath that is building the relationship. Start with council members, introduce myself as an individual before meetings. Had great conversations: “This is who I am, what we want to do, you tell me everything, let’s see what we can do together.” Asked open-ended questions: what does success look like? How can we best show up for you?

They said we were the first to ask them those questions.

Mitch Warner:

When we get the lowest level of the pyramid—mindset—right (seeing people as people), it changes our influence at every layer. People can tell when they’re being seen as people.

David White:

At the town council meeting, no one showed up to speak against us. Our mindset made the difference.

Eric Maddox:

If you don’t treat someone as a human, how can you expect them to do what humans do best—think and create? I need their ideas, creativity, imagination. That’s better for solving problems than just data.

You have to demonstrate you’re listening, show empathy, pick up breadcrumbs—key words and statements that are portals of empathy. Empathy-based listening isn’t just gathering information—it’s gaining trust by understanding perspective.

Never assume you know a person’s perspective—that’s dangerous. The goal of all communication is trust, for the purpose of influence. Some might see influence as manipulative, but at Arbinger, we draw a sharp line between seeing people as objects (means to our ends) or as people with needs and goals as real as our own. If trust is serving a larger end, is it trust or just using someone? It’s a hard question—everyone has objectives, and working together is inherently strategic.

But even with prisoners of war, my exclusive goal is to figure out what you need, get you those needs. You’ll trust me when I do. I’m in control because I give you trust freely.

They have useful information—I get it by serving them first. I’ve done 2,700 interrogations on eight deployments from 25 countries. If my prisoners saw me now, they’d hug me—they say I saved their life.

When we are outward, we don’t abandon what we need—we’re clear and transparent about what we seek. We listen to understand the other's needs, free of assumptions. Find a way to meet that need. Trust comes when we execute to deliver.

David White:

We’ve used odor-mitigating technologies, invested in that. When you go in now, you can’t smell a thing. I talk to the community, give updates, ask for feedback. This year’s Mayfest, we’re a premier sponsor. The community has welcomed us.

We acquired the business and became part of the community. The goal is to be a part of the community—we’re still on the journey, but we’re going through it together.

Mitch Warner:

Not everything ends with a festival sponsorship. Sometimes, no matter how outward we are, we hit a brick wall.

Eric Maddox:

Of all interrogations since 9/11, using old techniques had a break (cooperation) rate of 4%. My break rate as an empathy-based listener: 65%.

Why don’t some break? I don’t know all the reasons—cooperation requires a tough decision to trust. Leaders make tough decisions. The higher in the chain of command, the more likely to break. My last nine toward the capture—I went nine for nine.

But some biases cannot be overcome. Some people just won’t trust, no matter what. I learn from it, try to get better at building trust.

Mitch Warner:

No matter how well we listen, the person we’re talking to has agency. Whether or not someone trusts us is their choice, shaped by many experiences and assumptions. Part of seeing people as people is accepting that their baggage might prevent trust.

Eric Maddox:

This is all the more reason to grow as listeners. The good news: we can get better at this. As David demonstrated, and as I’ve proved, this can be learned.

After Saddam’s capture, I was taken to Washington, DC, to brief Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, then to brief George Tenet at the CIA. A 30-person civilian interrogation team was created under the Defense Intelligence Agency—I was hired as the first civilian interrogator by the Department of Defense. I did 2,700 interrogations on eight deployments, teaching this technique around the world for the next ten years.

But training someone to listen is challenging. You have to admit there’s a problem—humans can hear five times faster than the average person can talk, so our minds fill with distractions. To listen well, you must seek to understand the other person's perspective in each conversation. If you get into the deep 80-90% of effective listening, you build trust. Trust gives you influence.

Mitch Warner:

Undoubtedly a successful interrogator, leader, employee—just a successful human.

You see people as people. That’s our organizational goal. What’s the best way to demonstrate that? Give them your undivided attention, understand who they are, put their goals ahead of your own. Why? It builds trust. If you have communication and trust, how can you fail?

Closing:

Well, friends, that wraps up season 2. We hope that this episode, and everything we’ve explored together this season, has been helpful. To have a conversation about how we can equip you to transform your leaders and organization, schedule a complimentary strategy session at arbinger.com.

Whatever came to mind while listening—conversation you’ve been putting off, feedback that needs to be shared, action you need to take—don’t wait. Take that step because that’s how change starts. We’ll see you in season 3.