If I continue to spend all this time doing some of the policy stuff but lose the people, then what did I really gain? That would be a hard pill to swallow.

Structures, systems are in place, but when you look behind, you got nobody following you. What was it all for? What was it all for?

 

That’s a powerful and painful question. So painful that we might avoid asking ourselves because we’re afraid of what the answer might be. But of course, in order to live and lead outward, it's exactly the kind of question that we need to ask.

 

This is Leading Outward, a podcast from the Arbinger Institute where we explore what it really means to live and lead with an outward mindset, seeing people as people. I'm Victoria Trammel, a senior consultant here at Arbinger and your guide throughout this final coaching episode with Daniel. I’ll pop in to provide some additional context to the conversation between Daniel and Chip. And I’ll also be chatting with Chip directly to hear some of his thoughts.

 

For years, Daniel has carried the weight of his school, trying to fix problems by creating and enforcing policies and making sure things run his way. Through his conversation with Chip, Daniel begins to question whether all his effort over the past four years has created real, lasting change—or not, which is reflected in his question at the top of the show: What was it all for? By the end, Daniel and Chip wrap up their sessions together, and you'll hear how Daniel’s self-work is already making a difference in his school. I hope you’ll be inspired to reflect on yourself like I’ve been by Daniel’s willingness to explore his own way of being both at work and in the world.

 

Chip:

So, how you been?

 

Daniel:

I’ve been good. Yeah, you got me thinking the last couple weeks.

 

Chip:

What about?

 

Daniel:

When we left our last meeting, I started looking at the influence pyramid more as I was reflecting. I spent a lot of time dealing with things going wrong and correcting, and even as you were challenging some of the words I used—like “war” and things like that—I started realizing how I was contributing to the problem I was complaining about. I jump to correcting instead of helping things go right.

 

Chip:

Where are you not doing what you know is the right thing?

 

Daniel:

When I feel frustrated or things aren’t going the way I think they should, I just do it myself. In some ways I haven’t had the patience teaching or talking to get others to do it—I knew of it, I teach it, but I wasn’t actually applying it myself.

 

Chip:

What do you think the implications are of teaching people things you value, expecting them to work a certain way when you don’t work that way yourself?

 

Daniel:

People might not see me as real. If I’m not living what I’m asking them to do, I could be seen as a hypocrite. That could be why results aren’t where I want—maybe I’m slowing things down by not being genuine in what I say.

 

Chip:

If I were being led by you, I might think—well, this concept makes sense in the classroom, and when Daniel explains it, but when there’s pressure, he just forces his way. It’s a philosophy, but it’s not practical.

 

Daniel:

I was trying to be efficient or quick in fixing things, but it wasn’t yielding results that felt satisfying. The problems I’m complaining about aren’t outside me—I’m contributing to them by how I respond. Even at home, my wife was complaining about something and I kept telling myself, “Don’t just correct—figure out how I can help things go right.” Sometimes that meant just shutting up and I got better results with her—usually I try to fix it, and that never works.

 

Chip:

There’s two ways to shut up. One is to avoid hearing pushback; the other is truly being interested and present in what the other person has to say. Do you see the difference?

 

Daniel:

Yeah, it comes across in how I’m being right then.

 

Chip:

Have you ever had someone give you an insincere compliment?

 

Daniel:

Yeah, you know it right away.

With all my direct reports, I have one-on-ones each week, but it’s just checking a box. I start with the niceties, but I rush to the agenda. For example, one AP had been sick all week—she kept mentioning she wasn’t feeling well, and I’d just brush past it to start the meeting. But looking back now, she probably thought, “That jerk…”

I use almost that exact example when training other coaches about what NOT to do—having your script, pushing through your agenda, not seeing the person. I find myself doing this exact thing and thinking, “They know I care—but do they, when it matters?”

 

When you ask, “How are you today?”—what would be different if you really cared?

 

Daniel:

I’d actually listen and slow down to be present in the moment.

 

Chip:

How naked does it feel without a script?

 

Daniel:

Like I always have to be prepared. Having a script is my safety net. I never want people to think I’m unprepared—but when I train, I say the opposite: Be present and really listen.

 

Chip:

What does it feel like when you think people see you as unprepared or “not the man for the job?”

 

Daniel:

It feels like I don’t belong. I try to always be prepared so I never look like I don’t know what I’m doing. But I’ll also say, “Hey, I don’t have all the answers.”

 

Chip:

How does that square with doing it all yourself to get it done your way?

 

Daniel:

There’s a tension. At home, I get frustrated if my wife doesn’t do more—but she says that’s because I take everything over, and I say that’s because I want it done my way.

 

Victoria (narration):

This is a new Daniel. The willingness he shows to question himself, to reflect, is a major shift—even from just last session. As Daniel gets more comfortable with vulnerability and uncertainty, the conversation and Daniel both evolve in real time.

 

Chip:

I think your busyness—focusing on policies and structures—kept you away from being out among people, “in the trenches.” There’s a healthy way to stay busy: projecting yourself as a person into your work, finding meaning in engaging with others. But then there’s busyness for its own sake—a way to deaden ourselves, to avoid our real responsibilities as leaders.

 

Sometimes, we stay busy in order to avoid what we feel we should do, or because we don’t feel equipped, or because we feel vulnerable. What about that for you?

 

Daniel:

That hits. Part of the fear is, if I spend all this time on policy but lose the people—what did I really gain? Structures and systems might be in place, but if nobody’s following, what was it all for?

 

Victoria:

That’s a major “aha” for Daniel. He’s spent four years putting people on the back burner to stand up systems. Now he’s questioning if it was worth it. To deconstruct that way of thinking takes courage Daniel didn’t know he had.

 

Chip:

It takes courage to face down your justifications for going against what you know is right. We get caught up in leadership “behaviors”—thinking busyness equals effectiveness. I suspect that’s what’s happened for you: busyness insulated you from judgment and kept you from risking yourself with others. Maybe, at some level, you used policy work as insulation. Could that be?

 

Daniel:

Yeah, I can see that now.

 

Victoria:

It’s not enough to know the right thing—we need courage to do it. Daniel is realizing that being caught up in busyness and perfectionism made it easier to hide from deeper work: developing people.

 

Chip:

Think about your AP meeting—when you brushed past her struggle. What could you do before the day’s over?

 

Daniel:

Just check in—not about work—check in on her as a person. Maybe even apologize, be transparent: “I missed an opportunity to connect because I was focused on the agenda.”

I do have an obligation, when coaching, to see her as a person. It’s not just her missing a deadline—I missed something too.

 

Victoria:

I love how you pushed Daniel to go deeper. It’s easy to gloss over what it means to change our approach. But detail is important: if Daniel had just gone through the motions, the impact would be lost. Wrestling with what genuine connection looks like is key to developing an outward mindset.

 

Chip:

What’s important is owning your mistake—not just to ease guilt, but to show real care for the other person. Sit down, own your mistake, apologize, and truly ask, “How are you doing?” That makes them feel seen. And—being consistently connected means when it’s time for business, you can move forward more effectively.

 

Don’t script it—just say it honestly, with no expectation of anything in return. Do that, and I want to hear about it when we meet next.

 

Victoria:

Having a plan and following through are different things. Daniel has done the hard work to get here—but now it’s time for action.

 

So—how did Daniel do?

 

Daniel:

Right after the meeting, I pulled her aside, went into the office, and confessed: “I feel bad that I asked how you were and just dove into business. I wasn’t listening.” She said, “Yeah, I feel like you haven’t been listening lately.”

Her college roommate had passed away and she’d told me, but it didn’t register—I hadn’t listened. We talked for half an hour, and I shared that I’m working on getting feedback, trying to grow. The conversation broke the ice; she’d felt I had stopped listening—she was starting to doubt herself.

 

I told her, “I want to be more present, and I haven’t modeled that myself.” She understood. In fact, since then, if I stray in meetings, she reminds me: “Don’t forget what we talked about.” And I slow down.

 

Chip:

How did it feel to hear her say, “I feel like you haven’t been listening to me lately?”

 

Daniel:

It was good—I appreciate that she wasn’t afraid to give me that feedback. It slows me down, makes me stop, and I invited her to keep doing it, holding me accountable to my core values.

 

She always calls me “boss”—said, “No problem, boss. I got you.” And she’s reminded me a couple of times already.

 

Victoria:

Daniel went from thinking those around him weren’t working right, to having a direct report comfortable enough to call him out when he slips into old habits. That change is just beginning—the momentum from this coaching is something Daniel will carry into his ongoing leadership journey.

 

Leading Outward is produced by the Arbinger Institute, the premier provider of leadership development and organizational transformation. If you have the courage to participate in our podcast and have your coaching session recorded to help others on their leadership journey, contact us at leadingoutward@arbinger.com.

For help driving results in your teams and organizations, Arbinger has been helping clients for over 40 years. To talk to someone about your specific challenges and how we can help, book a meeting at arbinger.com.