I've honestly thought I was being helpful, but yeah, I think I'm feeling like I need to be seen as being helpful.

This is Janette, an executive director of human resources in a rural school district. Last week, we heard the beginning of her coaching journey, which started out with what she thought was a time management challenge. But as she worked with Mitch Warner, her Arbinger coach, they discovered together that the real challenge Janette has is in developing the people she leads—that she ends up stepping in to solve their problems. And then at the very end of the episode, she discovered that the same challenge shows up for her at home.

Janette:

It's not just my work life that's like that. It's ingrained in who I am.

McKinlay:

So today, we're taking a deep dive into what this looks like for Janette at home, when she engages with her family members from a place of needing to fix all their problems.

Janette:

I have great kids and a great husband, so I think my life is perfect. So there you go. No, I'm just kidding. My husband would often probably see me as somebody that's just sweeping in and fixing all everybody else's problems—and even his, possibly.

McKinlay:

Welcome to Leading Outward, the Arbinger Institute's podcast, where we explore the tools and ideas we've used for over 45 years to help people solve their toughest leadership and organizational challenges by leading with an outward mindset—seeing people as people. I'm McKinlay, and you're about to listen in on an unscripted leadership coaching session.

The magic of these coaching episodes of Leading Outward is that we get a chance to reflect and recognize areas we can improve through hearing the sincere and vulnerable reflection and process of these remarkable individuals who let us record their journey for the benefit of all of us listening. The hope is that Janette's discovery and growth can be the catalyst for our own.

Janette:

So, I had hoped we would maybe get to this situation. I have a son and daughter-in-law that live here in town, and she makes a lot of money doing what she does in the car business. She's changed jobs—this is her third job in three years. And my son is kind of Mr. Mom. He has his electrical license and can work in a lot of different settings, but she almost overshadows him a little bit. Well, she's not happy in this current job and is now looking for jobs up north.

And my husband is furious about it. Wants his grandkids here and feels like it's a dumb decision—"You're just following every whim." He's just not seeing their side. And maybe they are making a whim decision, but it isn't our decision. Anytime they communicate or talk, he's not willing to listen. My son isn't willing to listen to him. I feel like I'm in the middle. I want them to come together in this and not destroy those relationships, no matter where they live. It's just causing a lot of tension between my son and my husband and his wife. Am I making it worse by just trying to listen on their end and listen on his end, and nobody's really listening to anybody? What do you think?

I guess for the first time, I'm not feeling helpful. I just don't know where to go and what to do at this point. I don't want them to ruin their relationship—and I guess I put that on myself as well, to be the person to solve it. So how do I develop and help them communicate?

Mitch:

What do you hope is the end result of all of this?

Janette:

I don't think it really matters where they go. It's just maintaining that relationship on all sides. Continue to be grandparents and be part of their life. That's the ultimate goal for me.

Mitch:

Okay. So what's your son doing that's problematic?

Janette:

It's almost like he's just going along with whatever his wife wants him to do. Like, maybe he doesn't stand up and share his opinion. But I also see where he wants to maintain his marriage and his family and his relationship.

Mitch:

So here's a person who is going along with all of his wife's whims, doesn't share his opinion, is being influenced by a wife who is more money-motivated. How do you describe someone like that?

Janette:

My husband uses, "Doesn't wear the pants in the family." And choosing downtime with family instead of work—I would call it just trying to be a good dad. But my husband might call it lazy.

Mitch:

What are you and your husband doing when you see him like that? Do you lecture him? Are you distancing yourself from him? Do you talk about him and his wife instead of talking to them?

Janette:

I think I try to listen, but in those conversations, I probably do lecture. My husband does a lot of lecturing and sharing of his opinion. And yeah, we would talk about them.

Mitch:

How is your son and his wife seeing all that?

Janette:

The tension is definitely with my husband. My son's wife—she gets the snarky remarks and therefore doesn't want to come around. In conversations I've had with both of them, they feel like the relationship with my husband will be better if they move away.

Mitch:

Why?

Janette:

I think my husband pulls my son away from his wife, causing that tug-of-war. He loves them, but he needs them to be the way he wants them to be. Honestly, it's him wanting to be near them and wanting them to be a part of his life. But my son needs to be with his wife, and they need to have that relationship as well. I think they're trying to find balance—a place where they're not being pulled away by family and they can have each other. That's what I see. My husband's not quite seeing that yet. He just thinks he's losing his son and his grandsons. I think if they move away, the relationship will be better. But I'm not going to tell my husband that.

Mitch:

The reality is, it might feel better because the proximity doesn't highlight the issues. But the relationship actually won't get better. It'll just feel better, because you can't feel the impact of the broken relationship every day.

I want to give you a full minute to think about this. I want you to think about: what is this like for my daughter? What is life like for her with all of this? Be super honest.

Janette:

She doesn't feel accepted by him—maybe our family together. Possibly not loved. She doesn't feel like she's a good mom. That she's pulling our son away. This was a big one: life at work is better than coming home to this. Criticized in every way—any and everything she does.

Mitch:

Yeah. What do you think it's like for your son?

Janette:

I think I could say that he doesn't maybe feel like he's meeting the expectations of his dad. I don't know that he would have said this a few months ago, but now—maybe not loved. And definitely life somewhere else would be better than this tug-of-war that he's in right now. And definitely criticized for everything he does.

McKinlay (reflection):

When Mitch asked Janette to think about what life is like for her son and daughter-in-law, I just immediately thought of people in my life right now who would be really grateful if I asked that question about them. Because when we're in a situation that's causing us frustration or unpleasant emotion, I know for me, I'm not thinking, "What must life be like for Mitch right now?" I'm just thinking, "Wow, Mitch is really making life difficult for me right now." And that's very human—but it keeps us stuck.

Janette's ability to fully put herself into thinking what life must be like for the people around her is so stunning. And it's really difficult. We don't typically do that. I have to acknowledge what she's doing here—to fully sit with this question. And she does it with such raw honesty, simply acknowledging what we all know at that very visceral, gut level about what life actually must be like for the people around us.

Mitch:

Here's the question. If your son was doing all the things your daughter-in-law was doing, and your daughter-in-law was doing all the things your son was doing, would there be a problem?

Janette:

In my husband's view, the simple answer is no. The "following every whim" or "standing up for yourself"—those types of conversations probably wouldn't be there.

Mitch:

And if those conversations weren't there, would there be a motivation to move the way there is now?

Janette:

The simple answer is no.

Mitch:

Thinking about your son and your daughter-in-law—everything that your daughter-in-law is doing: successful, moving to multiple jobs in order to find greater compensation, taking very seriously the role of providing for the family, even at a young age finding a lot of success as a provider, having the ambition to look beyond where they are to see if there are even greater opportunities that may even create more independence so they can congeal as a family unit.

Janette:

I think I've probably done the same thing to my husband as I've grown in my career path. He's a farrier, a horseshoer, and is able to do his own thing on his own schedule. We have a great life. We have our animals and the kids and the farm, and it's been great for our children. So we have this parallel situation.

McKinlay:

Hey everyone, McKinlay here. You're currently listening to one of our coaching episodes. We also release narrative episodes that explore a single leadership challenge. We've created these two formats so that you're getting both ideas and a chance to see what incorporating those ideas looks like in practice. We're so glad you're here. And if someone's come to mind while you've been listening, it's probably because what you're hearing could help them solve points of friction in their life. Invite them to learn alongside us by sharing this episode with them.

Mitch:

When you were thinking about this situation with your son and daughter, why did you think about your situation with your husband, who's a farrier? You said something really interesting, and I want to figure out what this is. You said, "My husband and I have a little bit of the same dynamic."

Janette:

I often think about that. That's something that's come up a lot in our marriage. A lot. I try to be mindful of him in that situation.

Mitch:

So okay. What is the image that your husband has of himself that's threatened by the dynamic that he shares with you—around his job, your job, the marriage, the gender roles, how that's all played up? What does he need to be seen as that is hard for him to be seen as, given that reality?

Janette:

He loves to be seen as someone who's established the life he loves. That's what he likes to portray to everybody else. "I make my own schedule. I do what I want."

Mitch:

But you realize all of that—he did that jointly.

Janette:

Yeah.

Mitch:

That's not possible without your income. And he knows that. So he's got an image that "I've created the life I love"—but he didn't create it. Here is my question. If all of this was different—not with your son, not with your daughter-in-law—just if he didn't have that image of himself that is threatened by the reality that you two have created together in your own marriage, would this thing that's going on with your son and your daughter-in-law be so challenging?

Janette:

No. I definitely think it runs parallel. It's definitely related. Absolutely related.

McKinlay (reflection):

I think of this even just in situations in my own life when there's someone I am bothered by—how they live their life bothers me. It might have a direct impact on me, or it might not. But regardless, I'm just annoyed by how they live their life. And I wonder if that actually has less to do with them and the decisions they're making, and more to do with me and what I think the decisions they're making—or not making—say about me.

Mitch:

Hearing you talk about this, I think there's some really interesting parallels to the things you're working on in your professional role. I don't think they're actually that different.

McKinlay:

In the previous episode, Janette worked with Mitch to uncover how she could move from wanting to be seen as helpful—and consequently taking over for people—to actually developing the principals in her school district to enable them to handle their own hard situations.

Mitch:

Janette, I think you have an ideal in your head of what great looks like. And the moment that it looks like we're not going to achieve that, the cost feels too great. So figuring out their own path, experiencing the consequences of their own decisions—if that's not going to get exactly to the ideal in your head, then the cost of that is too great to say, "I'm going to let them continue to manifest their own capability and decision-making. I'm going to let them use their brain to figure out how to do this." That risk of not achieving the ideal is almost unbearable.

I think this is the exact same thing that's happening with your son and your daughter-in-law. I don't think there's any difference.

You can be so in love with an ideal that you actually miss the people. It's one thing to say, "I love my principals. I think they're awesome." But when it comes to them making and experiencing their own decisions, charting the path, when it comes to them actually being a principal—no, no, no. I don't love them that much, because I love the ideal of everything going exactly the way I think it should go.

So I can say, "I love my son and my daughter-in-law. I mean, how could I not love them?" But when it comes to them actually making decisions about their own life and deciding how they're going to structure their own family, I experience love as long as they conform to the ideal in my head. But if they don't, I will take over and I will insert myself in order to fix the discrepancy between where they're at and the ideal.

The real question is: do I love them as people who I see as capable as me and my husband? Or do I love the ideal?

Mitch:

We've talked about what your job is professionally relative to these principals. What's your job relative to your son?

Janette:

My only job—I can't change them. It's just to love them. And that's the thing I'm finding is the hardest thing to do—to back up and just let them make the decisions that they need to make as a couple. But yet, what's my job as a parent? Where can I offer advice without causing contention or feeling like I'm being selfish? I don't want to be that either.

Mitch:

It might be that your son and daughter aren't responding so much to anything that you and your husband are doing. It's that through whatever you're doing, they're sensing how they're being seen. So with the principals, I say that I think they're capable of this, but ultimately in the moment, what's being revealed is that what I'm doing must be an outgrowth of seeing them as less capable than me. And as a result of that, they're going to see themselves as less capable.

I actually think that this allegiance to an ideal over the people—just to be totally blunt—I think that has roots in the fact that you and your husband's lives have not measured up to that ideal. So I think you've got to wrestle that down. And that has nothing to do with your daughter-in-law and your son. That has everything to do with you. Just you, Janette. And then the question is: who are these people?

My 16-year-old son is so unlike me in all the externals. We are very different. In fact, he once told me that he thinks he was either born in the wrong century or he was born to the wrong father, because we are so different. He's the athlete I always wanted to be. He's so good with people. He's a wizard with animals. He's deeply loyal. He's hardworking. He's just good to his core. Really, in anything that matters, he's everything that I want to be.

But too often I have seen my son as headed for failure. School and academics not only came naturally to me—it was, "That's what you do, and there's no excuses." When I think about his future, this fear that my son is not going to be successful is so present.

But actually, when I just step back for a minute, here's the truth, Janette. The paradigm that I was raised to think is right—which is to have a job at a desk in an air-conditioned building—I thought that's what right looks like. So I look at my son, and it's so easy to fear that he's going to fail. But when I think about what he could actually accomplish in the world—personally, professionally, financially—I actually don't think that I'm fundamentally motivated in all of that by fear that he won't be successful. Because I think he could be incredibly successful in a thousand ways.

But what I'm really fearful of is, he won't be successful like me. And that scares me to death because of what that would mean about me as a dad. Not what he would be happy doing or what's right for him. I can't be in love with the ideal and be in love with my son.

Mitch:

What are you changing in your mindset to start to see him differently—to see him as this very capable young man who can be successful in a thousand ways instead of, not justified but resentful? What do you do in your mind to get that shift to happen?

Janette:

I have to ask myself: why am I so attached to this ideal? Why is that so important to me? Because that is about me. It has nothing to do with anyone around me.

Mitch:

I've found very few ideals that are important to me that, on real analysis, matter. Very few. There's nothing about that ideal that intrinsically matters. But it matters to me because I think it says something about me. So I have to do the work to look at that so squarely in the face, unflinchingly, that I can fess up to the truth about that—the perverse way that I end up seeing people who conform to one ideal over another. It's tragic. I don't see them. So I have to do the work of unpacking all of that.

This actually has nothing to do with your son and your daughter-in-law. This is a mirror that's playing out another generation. So what does that mean? It means that your husband has fundamentally failed because he has a vision of the way the world should work that didn't fully play out in his own life. And the question is—is that a failure? Are we seeing the world in an unhealthy way? If I see the world in an unhealthy way, I see myself in it in an unhealthy way. Actually, the place to start is between the two of you.

Janette, who are you really trying to influence here? Are you trying to influence your son? Are you trying to influence your daughter-in-law? Are you trying to influence your husband?

Janette:

I would say my husband.

Mitch:

You know that in this whole dynamic, nothing gets any better unless your husband changes how he sees himself. So how do you need to change in order to help him change?

Janette:

We want them to come and be with us and be here, but the actions that we're taking are causing them to push away. We're inviting exactly what we don't want. It's funny, because I preach this all the time. I think I'm trying to solve the problem in the wrong way. And that's that being-helpful side of me, for sure. In separate conversations, I've asked my son to look at his wife through this lens. I've asked her to look at him through this lens. And here I am.

McKinlay:

Mitch and Janette connected a few days later to see where Janette was at with what they'd been working on together, and she shared a conversation that she had with her husband.

Mitch:

Where have you been in this journey over the last few days since we talked? What's been happening that you want to talk about?

Janette:

We had a great conversation on Saturday morning. I talked about how I had been feeling and thinking through this process of my son and his wife and their family leaving. I came right out and I said, "I'm feeling like we're kind of running this parallel situation here. She's wanting to improve herself and grow." I don't want to hold her back. I just reiterated that I want to be able to see her, and what life is like for her in this situation, and how she's feeling when she's around us. If she's feeling less than, like not a great mom, or maybe her job is more important than her family—I don't want her to feel that way.

And then on the same side, to try to see my son as someone who wants to maintain his relationship. He loves his wife. He is more flexible, and he's maybe okay to find a different job, a better job where they move or whatever. Are we making him feel less than, because it's her that's moving forward and changing? We don't want them to leave with this relationship issue.

I asked my husband to try to see that differently. And he said, "It's going to be hard for me. I have a tough time letting go of the feelings that I have, the hurt, and then also the jealousy that came up." He's jealous. He said, "I wish neither one of my children got married."

Mitch:

We get to a place where these images that we have are so important to us that they overshadow everything else. What can help us get to a place where we're willing to rethink all of that is when we finally see our daughter-in-law and start asking ourselves, "What is life like for her? And how did our son get to be so lucky that he found someone who is that committed to figuring out how they're going to make ends meet? And look at this boy. He wants to be like his dad and have a relationship with his dad. And he wants his mom and his dad to have a relationship with his wife. But he's so torn in this moment—what do I do? How do I support her in making sure that she has the opportunity to grow her natural talents?"

When you start to see them, and get really curious together, you and your husband, about what life is like for them, all of those societal constructs that we just inherited—they go away. Because they can no longer hold up under the light of actual people who are doing their very best to navigate their way in the world. Make sure their kids have a relationship with their grandparents. Make sure that they keep a relationship with their parents. And scratching their head all the time, going, "Why do they have so much disdain for us?"

Janette:

My daughter-in-law and I drove together on Monday for two hours one way and then two hours back. So we had some good windshield time. I really had tried to listen and ask questions and see her—and I do. I see what she wants for herself, for her family. I think in a lot of ways she makes him better. She pushes him to do things that he probably wouldn't normally do, and then he finds that he does enjoy them. He's happy with her. I definitely think she makes him better than he would be on his own. So that was a really good experience for both of us.

Mitch:

You sound like you're speaking for the first time like you're her mother instead of her mother-in-law. What else would you see if you were her mother?

Janette:

A strong, capable young woman who has just made amazing strides in the industry that she's in. But also someone who is holding her family together through some difficult things right now. She's strong.

Mitch:

So where you at? What's your sense about what to do with your daughter-in-law?

Janette:

I think I continue to try to see her and listen, and what can I see in her that's positive and good, and truly truly love her. And then the same thing for my son. We do try to go out to lunch at least once every couple of weeks, so I want to start with that and just really listen and try to see him. I'm not going to offer any advice.

Mitch:

As you see them for who they are, do you think there'd be any value in vocalizing what you're seeing? To them.

Janette:

Yeah. Absolutely. They need to hear that. Because the way that you have been seeing—that's been communicated.

Mitch:

So as you see those things, say them.

Janette:

Okay. Yes. Professionally and personally, we've been tackling these two things in this journey together. It's funny that you can start with time management and end up with something that you've probably been struggling with your whole life. And it isn't about time management—but it is. It's all tied in together.

Mitch:

Let's talk about what to do. What's your sense of what to do with this particular principal we've been talking about?

Janette:

We do need to develop a professional growth plan for this teacher. And rather than doing that at the first of the school year, I need to do that right away and just sit down with this principal and say, "Hey, I want to work with you on this one." And just open up the file and talk about those missing pieces. "We just need to make sure that we're following this checklist. You're capable, you can handle this. I'm here to support if you need me. This is something that I know you're able to do."

Mitch:

When will you do that?

Janette:

They're here for our building leadership meeting. I don't know if it's tomorrow or the next Tuesday—but that's probably a good time to do it.

McKinlay (reflection):

This is such a beautiful moment for Janette, because at the end of the first session, Mitch had asked her how she was going to address the deficiencies in the way the principal had approached the disciplinary process. And Janette said that her inclination was to just start fresh with the next situation. So to have Mitch ask her a very similar question now—"What do you feel to do with this principal?"—and to have her immediate response be, "Well, we're meeting tomorrow. I think that would be a good time to talk about this"—is so cool. That willingness to act is, I think, the biggest indicator that we're changing—that we're seeing other people and our impact on them so clearly that we can't not act. We can't wait.

Mitch:

So send me a voice memo when you've done it. Right after you've done it, and tell me how it goes.

Janette:

I will. Okay.

I was able to visit with the principal on Thursday and again today at our principal's meeting. We had a great conversation, and I apologized for jumping in. I let her know that I have complete trust in her and her abilities to be able to do the work, and wanted her to know that I wanted to be there to walk alongside her and help her in these situations in the future. We talked about the professional growth plan, and she said that she would be glad to get that started and then just let me review that.

I was also able to visit with my daughter-in-law after a long ride this weekend. I tried super hard to listen and love. As I listened and avoided offering my advice, I let her know at the end of the conversation how much I loved her and how proud I was of her and what a great mom she was. It was a fun day, and there definitely wasn't that tension that has been there in the past.

I haven't had a chance yet to visit with my son. I am hoping to be able to do that tonight. But I want to take the same approach—really just listen, and help him to understand my love for him and how proud I am of him, for the father and hard worker that he is. And continue to love throughout this process. I really want to move forward developing others and supporting them, walking alongside as they continue to learn and grow. And I think I will continue to learn and grow as well.

McKinlay:

There is something so powerful about taking the next step immediately. Whatever step we feel to take when we see those we lead as people. Whether that's at work or at home, what Janette said is true. Our job as a leader in every aspect of our life, as it turns out, is the same.

Janette:

The last thing I want to say about myself is that I'm selfish.

Mitch:

Yeah. But we all are. It's not easy to really let go of yourself and see others. It's not.

Janette:

But it's time to really start to let go of these ideals and these things that are sometimes heavy, so that we can see others—their dreams, their hopes, their desires. And at work, see the people that I'm trying to pick up the pieces from in my head. And once I can do that, allow them to do what they can do.

McKinlay:

Leading Outward is produced by the Arbinger Institute, the premier provider of leadership development and organizational transformation. Here's our invitation to you: if you have the courage to participate in our podcast and have your coaching session recorded in order to help others on their leadership journey, contact us at leadingoutward@arbinger.com. If you'd like help driving results in your teams and organization, the Arbinger Institute has been helping clients do just that for over 40 years. To talk to a team member about your specific challenges and how we can help, book a meeting at arbinger.com.