Just because I come in and take it over, am I inadvertently causing them to feel like I don't trust them?

This is Janette. After spending 18 years as a teacher, she's now an executive director of human resources in a rural school district. And you're about to listen in on a raw, unscripted leadership coaching session between Janette and Mitch Warner, her Arbinger coach.

Janette:

It's really part of a time management issue. You could spend the entire day reading emails honestly and answering emails. But there's a lot of things that need to get done, and prioritizing those things—I think we all really struggle with how to manage our time in the most effective way.

McKinlay:

How do we manage our time in the most effective way? This is the very relatable challenge that Janette presented to Mitch. But what they quickly uncover is that time management is not the real issue. It's actually a symptom of the real challenge Janette is struggling with. And the idea behind these episodes of Leading Outward is that you can see some of yourself in Janette. That the places she gets stuck are the places we get stuck. All of us. But that through direct and honest introspection, dialogue, and action, we are actually capable of the change needed to transform our workplaces and ourselves.

Welcome to Leading Outward, the Arbinger Institute's podcast, where we explore the tools and ideas we've used for over 45 years to help people solve their toughest leadership and organizational challenges by leading with an outward mindset—seeing people as people. I'm McKinlay.

Mitch:

Where do you want to start? What do you think would be the best place to start for you?

Janette:

I really want to help people. This one's probably the heart for me. I really want to be a servant leader. Maybe that's why I have a tough time with time management. I get opportunities in my day and in my weeks to be with people and to work alongside them—but not enough. Things happen. I get caught up in, you know, whatever it is. Too many meetings, probably, or the emails. I could be out more than I am. I love the opportunities when I'm able to sit down with teachers, for them to get to know me and trust me. But I find myself just getting caught up in administration-type things—making sure that policies are being followed, hiring and onboarding, the mandatory training side of that, discipline if we need to, licensing, reviewing them, getting to know the 504, ADA, staff appreciation, Title IX, any personnel related to a wellness program for our employees. I'm a member of the district administrative team, the bathroom newsletter so they can read it in the bathroom—and I try to make it fun. And I'm still in charge of professional development for the district as well. That's a big piece that I forgot.

Mitch:

There's a fundamental lack of clarity. There's so much stuff. Everything's got to be done. So, what do we not do, or what do we do later? But in terms of what you do every day and what you develop other people to do and how you allocate your time between those things—what's it all for? On a super high level.

Janette:

I mean, it's highly effective teaching in every classroom.

Mitch:

Are we there yet?

Janette:

Well, I don't know.

Mitch:

By the way, you're not going to do any of this yourself.

Janette:

I know. That might be where the underlying problem is, right? Am I helping them to be able to handle the situation on their own? Every time that I go in with a principal and help them work through a situation, is that my focus—to really help them to be able to handle it? Am I asking the right questions? Our processes still need to be clear so that we don't get ourselves into hot water. As I'm working through situations, I want to be more of a leader and a guide to help them work through the situations on their own, but also learn alongside of me.

Mitch:

What's that going to look like?

Janette:

Well, I did one yesterday. We've been working on this one for about a week. This is an employee discipline situation. At the start of the week, I did the investigation. The principal, however, was out of town, and so I normally would have probably had her do the investigation, but I did the investigation and wrote up the discipline letter and everything. I did the whole thing. So yesterday we sat down to give the discipline to the employee, and she basically said, "You take care of it." The principal said that.

Mitch:

Why did this principal say that?

Janette:

This isn't our first sit-down with this employee. They can get very strong. Their personality is very strong, very heated. I know she was very nervous to go into that, and I think wanted the support. I don't want to pull away from that support, but I want to just be that—in support—and let them handle the situation. It really was an issue about appropriate teaching, and that could have totally been handled at the school level. How can I, in the future, especially in situations like this, help that principal just walk them through, ask them the right questions to get them to be able to handle that on their own?

Mitch:

Why the pattern in the past? Why do you take it? When the principal says, "Oh, you take it, Janette," or they don't say anything and you just slide into that first chair position, that pilot position?

Janette:

I think less difficult situations, she would have handled great. I think she would have handled it all by herself if it was a different employee. But this one—we're working through steps. This is the third step in the discipline policy. She just wants to make sure she's doing it correctly. I pulled the file of this employee, and the first two letters that she had administered were lacking in critical pieces, especially when what we call due process has to happen. And I did not say anything about that—and maybe I should have. I worry that we've missed a step and we've got to go back and start over. We have to follow certain processes. Had they put certain things in the letter, we could've saved ourselves from problems later on. I'm just trying to support them to make sure that they do it correctly, and that we're not having to deal with it later on with more difficult issues.

Mitch:

Well, why didn't you say something about those two first lacking notes?

Janette:

I don't know. I didn't want her to feel bad. I didn't want her to think that she made a mistake the first time. I don't know.

Mitch:

Where does that come from?

Janette:

I don't know. That's why I'm here.

Mitch:

I think you do know. In your gut, you have this sense that I'm spending so much time doing all the things. And yet in my role, when I go in to support a principal, I end up not saying the straightforward, honest thing about where they've fallen down in the process when they've done it on their own. And then when they turn to me and asked to offload their responsibility as the principal, I just took it. So I didn't say the hard thing about where they've been. And in terms of where we were going next, I jumped right into the pilot seat as soon as they said, "I'm not that comfortable in the pilot seat."

As I'm hearing that story that happened yesterday, I'm wondering—are all the answers in that story? Is that a microcosm of the bigger macro issues that you're experiencing around time management and things like that?

Janette:

I want to serve them that way. I want them to have the support and help they need. I feel like it takes something off of their plate. It's easy for me to follow the process and know what needs to be done. I'm helping them. They can feel confident that it was taken care of and taken care of correctly. It's easy for me to jump in and just do it. But I need to be a guide, and I want to be a guide. I want to help them and facilitate their learning as well. But I don't know what I would sit down and ask her to start that conversation. In some ways, I feel like I'm helping them, but I also know that I need to empower them to be able to handle them on their own.

Mitch:

What do you want their perception of you to be when you come in and help? You want them to say Janette is what?

Janette:

Helpful.

Mitch:

Helpful. What do you want the principals to be able to say about themselves?

Janette:

That they're capable of handling it. I think they want to be able to do that.

Mitch:

So this image that you have or want to have of yourself, and this image that you want the principals to have of themselves—is there any way in which, given that experience yesterday, those two images are at odds? You really can't have both.

Janette:

In some ways, yeah. If I'm taking over and doing it, then they might feel that they're not capable.

Mitch:

What's the message that you send to the principal when you say, "Okay, I'll take over. I'll do it"?

Janette:

I want to send the message that I'm going to help you with this.

Mitch:

Right. But that's about you as the HR director and how helpful you are. So that look—anytime we call Janette, she's really helpful. She'll come in. She'll even do it for you. But ultimately, if the real objective was, "We want every single one of our 26 principals capable and confident to handle the compliance issues themselves in their own building"—what would that look like? What would you be doing?

Janette:

Maybe we have a situation, we come in, I have the checklist with me, and we start at the top so that they don't miss something in the process. And I start asking them, "Have you done this? Have you done this? How can I help?"

Mitch:

Why does it start there? Why does it start with "I come in, I bring the checklist"? What would the question be that you would ask to ensure that in every interaction you are developing capable and confident principals who own the result?

Janette:

I might start with, "Where are you on your checklist?"

Mitch:

That's it. That's the question. It's a totally different question than, "All right, let's go through your checklist. I'm here to save the day, with the big Superman on my chest." It's not like that. It's just, "You own this. This is your responsibility. So, if I'm only here to help and support, but I'm not ever going to remove that ownership from you—then yeah, that's the question. Where are you at on the checklist?" It assumes what you want to be a reality.

McKinlay:

Mitch, I'm really interested in what you said there. You told Janette that the questions she asks need to assume what she wants to be a reality. Tell us what you were thinking when you said that.

Mitch:

It's the expectancy effect. What you expect actually changes—not just what you ask. It changes everything that you do. People can tell, and they will respond to what you expect.

McKinlay (reflection):

There was this interesting study, the Rosenthal-Jacobson study in 1968, where these two researchers took elementary school students. They administered, kind of on the sly, an IQ test so that they would have a baseline understanding of the actual abilities of these students. And then they told the teachers that certain students chosen at random from this group had greater intellectual abilities than other students. They called them "intellectual bloomers." And what was so interesting is that when they came back at the end of that school year, those students that had been labeled as intellectual bloomers demonstrated far greater academic improvement compared to their peers, despite no actual difference in their initial abilities.

And so from a leadership perspective, when we think about how we're showing up—if we believe that the people we are leading are not actually capable, then that will come through in everything that we do. We won't be able to hide it. And in this particular case, I think that's critical for Janette, or anybody who's having this kind of a struggle.

Janette:

So I'm thinking through questions, right? I do want them to make sure they're in compliance with this. So the next step, "Have you made sure to do this?" Or is that stepping in too much?

Mitch:

You tell me. If you want principals that own this, what does that interaction look like that helps them own it? If the people that you lead never get to experience the consequence, what they end up doing will be a reflection of the fact that, "I don't really own this. Janette owns this. So I will go through the motions, because I know that's what I'm supposed to do. But in terms of making sure that this goes really well—I don't really own that."

McKinlay:

Hey everyone, McKinlay here. You're currently listening to one of our coaching episodes. We also release narrative episodes that explore a single leadership challenge. We've created these two formats so that you're getting both ideas and a chance to see what incorporating those ideas looks like in practice. We're so glad you're here. And if someone's come to mind while you've been listening, it's probably because what you're hearing could help them solve points of friction in their life. Invite them to learn alongside us by sharing this episode with them.

Mitch:

You'd never stood up an HR department before this one?

Janette:

No. No.

Mitch:

That's so interesting. You'd never been a part of another HR team to learn on the job?

Janette:

No.

Mitch:

You just said to your superintendent, "I've been trained. I've never seen what I'm trying to build here, but I actually can handle HR for an entire school district. I can actually build one that doesn't exist."

Janette:

Looking back on it, yeah.

Mitch:

That's so cool. And you've loved it.

Janette:

I love it. I do.

Mitch:

Because you own it. But what if you didn't own it? What if all the hard stuff that happened, the superintendent said, "Oh, you know what? Let me do that part."

Janette:

That one actually takes some thinking. I think if my superintendent were to take some of that away from me, I would feel that I had done something wrong, or that I—I don't know, not as empowered. I don't know if that's the right word. It's what's coming to my mind. And I can see how maybe the principals are feeling that right now. That lack of trust definitely creates a feeling, maybe, of "I can't do it." And they don't feel maybe as empowered, or even as excited about their job.

Mitch:

For some reason, you trust yourself a lot. A lot of people who find themselves in leadership do. But what would it look like if you extended that same level of trust to handle things that could go bad? The reality is, it's not trust if there's no consequence of it going south. It's almost like the degree of trust is a direct correlation to the degree that the thing you're entrusting someone with could go really, really bad. But if they don't own that outcome, then they never feel the full weight of, "How do I make sure that this goes well?"

Janette:

I don't think I've done that with the principals. It's empowering for me to feel like I can do this. It's empowering for me to be able to do that work. And so I think it would be the same way for the principals. Sometimes it's a time thing, too. I have to get it done, and we have to meet with that employee. So you just do it.

Mitch:

Look, you can go fast—and then it's really slow because I stepped in and I had the conversation and we got this done. So it moves fast, but going forward, that principal yesterday is not really that much more prepared or confident to own this. So you're going to have to step in every single time, and every one of those will be fast, but you're going to do everything. Or you can go slow in order to go fast. That's the cost of real leadership—to go slow up front, because we've got to develop that level of competency and confidence and a sense of ownership.

McKinlay (reflection):

As Mitch was talking about that, I wanted to pipe in and be like, Janette, just so you know—working with Mitch every day, he has a really hard time with this. Yeah. There's been so many times that I've said something similar. Like, "Well, Mitch, doesn't this person need to know how to actually do this thing? I don't have time for that." And then it's like, well, okay. Yes, exactly. This is hard.

Janette:

You're right. I do this. I do this. I am Janette.

Mitch:

Let's go back. Let's rewind to yesterday. What would you do to go slow?

Janette:

So she called me. "This is so-and-so teacher again." Quite frustrated about the situation. "This is what happened. What do I do?" That was probably the initial conversation.

Mitch:

So it should—okay, let's roleplay this. I'm the principal. Janette, this is Principal So-and-so. This employee who we were talking about—we've got an issue here.

Janette:

And as a principal, you're headed out of town for the next three days.

Mitch:

Yeah. Well, it's that, and then I've got a thousand other things.

Janette:

Tell me about your assistant principal. Is he leaving town as well?

Mitch:

Uh, no. He's here. I mean, he's slammed. There's no doubt about it. But he's here.

Janette:

So, you know, he could sit with you when you have the conversation. But what about this investigation? Is this something that you feel like can wait? Is this a critical issue?

Mitch:

Well, I just don't want to communicate to the teacher that this isn't a big issue to me by letting it slide for too long. It's around this teacher's performance.

Janette:

So is it something you feel like your assistant principal can handle? At least the investigation part—trying to get more information.

Mitch:

Uh, I think so. I just know how busy he is.

Janette:

I think it would be good. I think it would be really good for him to handle it. He's handled things for us in the past. He does a really great job. If we can get that information, then we can work together to see where we need to go next. What are your thoughts?

Mitch:

Okay. I'll have him do it. But of course, I don't think he can have the conversation.

Janette:

No, that probably needs to be you as the principal. But at least have him get the information, and then you and I could work together on that checklist.

Mitch:

I'm wondering—wait, what does that mean? "We're going to work together." Try that one more time.

Janette:

Yeah. Okay. So, if you can have him gather that information, and then from there, let's get that checklist out and start working through that checklist. I mean, you guys know what to do. And we'll do that together.

Mitch:

When you say, "Let's get that checklist out"—what? All right. "You get that checklist out now." What? Which? Okay. Which checklist?

Janette:

See, we got to go way back.

Mitch:

Okay. No, no—you're here. That's the thing. You're here. This is the moment, right? And the reality is, if I'm like most human beings, I'm going, "I don't know what checklist she's talking about. But you know what I do know? I know when Janette comes, she'll handle it. So, I don't even know that I need to know what the checklist is." Knowing what I know about you and how you take over when you come on site—I might say, if I'm brave and honest, "What checklist?" But to the degree that, as a principal, I have an image of myself that I know what I'm doing, I'll probably just go, "Mhm. Okay. So what day are you coming?" You already know that I probably don't know what the checklist is. I mean, you said—"I have this sneaking suspicion." So what do you say?

Janette:

So once you have all that information, I want you to sit down with your vice principal, grab the procedural discipline checklist, and start moving through that process. And I'm going to send that to you, just to make sure that you've got it. I'm here along the way. Let me know where you are and what I can do to support.

Mitch:

Great. Will you be there, Janette, when we have the conversation?

Janette:

Well, this is where my heart steps in. I'm like, "Would you like me to be there?"

Mitch:

But there's nothing wrong with you being there. And in fact, it's probably really healthy that you're there. But what do you share with me on this call so that I'm becoming prepared to own this the way you want me to own it?

Janette:

Okay. The way I should own it. Our conversation on the phone might be, "You've got this. The letter is written very well. Generally, I like to stick to the letter. So, it might be a good idea for you just to start the conversation and read through the letter. And then be prepared to answer questions that the employee might have, and make sure you get it signed and give him a copy and should be good to go."

Mitch:

I just want to know, Janette, how far away is all of this that we've been doing from what typically happens?

Janette:

I would say it's pretty far away when we're dealing with a difficult employee, or we're getting towards where termination is a possibility. But I definitely can think of principals, this one included, that would be more apt to want me to just take care of it than to take care of it herself.

Mitch:

And that's where you're spending all of your time. But I want to know—is there something innately about these principals where you think, "No, they could never do this. They can't do what I do"?

Janette:

No, I really think the more they do it, they'll learn the process. That's what it takes. The more I do it, the less they're going to know that process. Relying on them to make sure that they're following each one of those steps is actually, in the end, teaching them the policies and helping them feel more confident over and over as we do it.

Mitch:

Only if they own it.

Janette:

If they own it. Yes. If they own it.

Mitch:

I think you actually have the same issue that I have. You do a lot of stuff, and it cripples the people that you lead. I had employees who would come to me to resolve issues, and how I would see them was as less competent than me. I just didn't see them as trustworthy to get the right result and have the right kind of conversation and have it come out the right way. I just didn't see them like I saw myself. I saw them as fundamentally inferior to me.

So, in a sense, it's like, well, I can't blame these people. They know that I'm better at this than them. They know that I'm going to own this, that I feel a sense of ownership, that I'm fairly good at having these conversations. So what would I end up doing, given that I have an image of myself that is not just more competent—but it was like, "I save the day. I'm the sort of person who's really helpful, who cares, who is supportive." So what did I end up doing? I ended up doing the very thing that they would ask me to do. And then how did they see me?

Janette:

Well, as all of those things. "Well, Mitch is super helpful. He'll have the hard conversations that you don't want to have."

Mitch:

So did that invite them to do more or less of the thing I said I didn't like? "Well, I don't like them coming to me with all of their problems. I want them to solve this themselves." But am I behaving in a way that will invite that? No, no, no. I'm doing the very opposite. I'm telling everybody, "If you have a problem, and the more sticky the issue, come to me." And it wasn't actually driven by the objective of helping them. It was driven by the objective of needing to be seen as somebody who was super helpful. And then I wasn't actually that successful as a leader, because I had to do everything. I wasn't developing people who were taking care of their own challenges, and ultimately made me superfluous.

What does that bring up for you as you think about where you're at and the kinds of things that have maybe gotten in the way of just really developing these principals?

Janette:

I think you're right. I haven't looked at it in that light. I've honestly thought I was being helpful, but yeah—I think I'm feeling like I need to be seen as being helpful.

Mitch:

Where do you think that comes from for you?

Janette:

Wow. It's not just my work life that's like that. It's ingrained in who I am.

Mitch:

Where else are you seeing it show up?

Janette:

It's the same at home. It's the same in my religious church life as well.

Mitch:

The cost in your role as HR director is that ultimately the principals aren't developing the way they could be developing. What's the cost at home?

Janette:

I think I probably have the same "Mom will fix it" kind of attitude at home. I have great kids and a great husband, so I think my life is perfect. So there you go. No, I'm just kidding. My husband would often probably see me as somebody that's just sweeping in and fixing all everybody else's problems—and even his, possibly. I haven't had a conversation about this with him though. So maybe I should this week.

Mitch:

Yeah, maybe you should. If the objective in your professional life is to develop principals who are really confident and capable and have a full sense of ownership—what's the objective at home?

Janette:

I think it's the same.

Mitch:

I actually think that, ultimately, people will find you most helpful to fully own their own challenges. It's the same as a parent. I cannot be focused on my image as a good parent and be a good parent—because a good parent is fully focused on their kids and what their kids actually need in order to improve. And sometimes what they need is to have the safety net removed. But that comes at the cost of me being seen as a really good parent, because the outcome is a reflection on me. No, it's not. Their ability to grow and develop and become fully capable, fully independent without me—that's actually the measure of whether or not I'm a good parent. And I can't do the kinds of things that would help us get there if I'm focused on being a good parent. They're just mutually exclusive.

So, thinking about that and thinking about this principal—there's these two documents that came right at the beginning of this whole discipline process with this particular teacher. What do you need to do with those?

Janette:

My inclination is to start fresh with the next situation.

Mitch:

Why?

Janette:

Because I feel like it would be easier. That's the only reason.

Mitch:

So this principal—do they know that you've seen the two documents that came?

Janette:

Yeah, I asked for the file so that I could review it.

Mitch:

So if they know that you, Janette, have seen these two documents that they wrote, and we've moved on to the third one, and you haven't said anything—what's their assumption?

Janette:

Their assumption would be that there is no problem.

Mitch:

And why are you okay with that? You're sending a message by not saying anything is, "Well, that's okay." In terms of the discipline development process of this employee, we're not on conversation three. We're actually on conversation one, because the documentation on one and two didn't really happen well enough. In terms of "go slow to go fast"—what do you owe this principal?

Janette:

I think it's a good idea to sit down and have the conversation that we had earlier about the checklist, letting them own this, as well as bringing up the pieces that were missed last time and making sure that those don't get missed this time. Helping them make sure that they go through that checklist and don't miss a piece. That's kind of where my mind is, but it feels clunky.

Mitch:

I'll tell you what's clunky. It's clunky to assume that this principal will be any different if you don't go back and say, "Hey, I want to just have a conversation with you about those first two." This is your homework. You have to have that conversation totally free of that image—"I'm the sort of person who's helpful. I'm the sort of person who will do it for you." I want Janette, the person that develops really competent and confident leaders. I want you to have the conversation about those first two discipline write-ups that are in that file, totally free of that image.

Janette:

All right, I will.

Mitch:

All right, my friend. Thank you so much.

Janette:

Thanks, Janette. Good luck.

McKinlay:

Join us in the next episode, where Janette and Mitch take a deep dive into how this challenge is showing up for Janette at home.

Janette:

It's funny that you can start with time management and end up with something that you've probably been struggling with your whole life.

McKinlay:

Leading Outward is produced by the Arbinger Institute. To have a conversation about how we can equip you to transform your leaders and organization, schedule a complimentary strategy session at arbinger.com.

And for those of you who have the courage to have your own coaching sessions recorded and shared like the episode you just listened to, so that others can be helped on their leadership journey, email us at leadingoutward@arbinger.com.