We’ve all felt it: the tension between being real and being in charge. But as inner-city middle school teacher Carla Debow and retired Air Force commander Naomi Franchetti reveal, that’s a false choice. Connection isn’t a distraction from leadership—it’s the doorway into it.
This episode explores what happens when leaders stop hiding behind roles and start showing up as people. The result? Teams that listen, trust, and rise to meet the moment, not because they’re forced to, but because they want to.
Bottom line: The most credible leaders are the most human ones and trust is built at the intersection of expectation and empathy.
We’ve all felt it: the tension between being real and being in charge. But as inner-city middle school teacher Carla and retired Air Force commander Naomi reveal, that’s a false choice. Connection isn’t a distraction from leadership—it’s the doorway into it. This episode explores what happens when leaders stop hiding behind roles and start showing up as people. The result? Teams that listen, trust, and rise to meet the moment, not because they’re forced to, but because they want to. Bottom line: The most credible leaders are the most human ones and trust is built at the intersection of expectation and empathy. Questions we answer: 01:00 – Why do some “strict” leaders earn devotion—and others resentment? 02:45 – What makes connection feel risky in leadership and is it worth it? 06:00 – What held Naomi back from leading as her full self for 26 years? 09:30 – What happens when your personal and professional worlds collapse at once?12:00 – What happens to a team when their leader gets real? 15:00 – Why is accountability so easy to delay—and so costly to avoid? To claim your free Leading Outward sweatshirt, head to leadingoutward.com!
Carla Debow: The teachers all around me say, how come you're so strict? You're so mean, and they won't leave your room. They're here after school. They're here at lunch. These kids never go away. What the heck are you doing in there? McKinlay Otterson: That's Carla Debow, a middle school teacher in inner city Phoenix, describing how she gets her students, kids who have faced serious life challenges, to not just meet her expectations, but exceed them. Carla Debow: They had to say, thank you, mister Garcia. Thank you, miss so and so, so that we don't say those awful b words that they like to call each other. We don't do that in my classroom. If the if any adult walks in the room, I expect the nearest child to that adult to get up, offer them a seat, and then offer to tell them what it is we're doing in the class at that moment in time so they don't know don't interrupt the whole class, all those things. I want respect. The gentlemen have to let the ladies in the classroom first I'm teaching respect and manners and self respect for self, all that stuff while we're teaching the lessons. That's how I roll. McKinlay Otterson: Most of us can probably think of someone, a leader, a teacher, a coach who was really strict with us, and we loved it. Because somehow, their high expectations felt motivating and rewarding. But then we can also probably think of a person that was really strict who we did not enjoy. And it was something about their rules that annoyed us and caused us to resist the expectations that they had. So what makes the difference? Because feeling like you have to choose between connecting with your team or holding them accountable is a real struggle many leaders wrestle with. How do I build real connection with the people I also have to hold accountable? Welcome to Leading Outward, the Arbinger Institute podcast, where we explore the tools and ideas we've used for over forty five years to help people solve their toughest leadership and organizational challenges by leading with an outward mindset, seeing people as people. I'm McKinlay Otterson. Carla Debow: I'm working with inner city youth here who are troubled, and I've been there, done that. I had a horrendous growing up. We were very poor. My mom was a prostitute. My dad was an alcoholic. I tell these stories in the classroom to my kids when it's time and when it's appropriate for them to hear them, and I can tell immediately when they start seeing me different. Oh my god. She's not that missus Debo. She's our missus Debo. She gets it. She been there. She can relate. I just tell them who I am. McKinlay Otterson: That phrase, I just tell them who I am, is what makes Carla Debow's approach work. Her students embrace her expectations because of the connection they feel with her. Carla Debow has a degree of willingness to share with her students who she is. She doesn't just acknowledge the challenges that they're experiencing, but she willingly shares with them the challenges that she's faced. So they get a chance to know her, not only as their teacher, but as a person, as Carla Debow, as someone who experienced a lot of the same things that they do. Carla Debow: I have teachers I work with on a day-to-day basis, and the children don't even know that these teachers have children. I find that astonishing. We don't open up and say who we are. We're afraid to talk about who we really are as human beings for some reason. And then you, oh my god, he's not so perfect. He's just like me. I felt that. I've been there. I've done this. And and all of a sudden, the perfect goes away. The real comes out, and then you start listening to people. McKinlay Otterson: Carla Debow's experience leading a classroom illustrates something that can seem really counterintuitive. Many of us think that there needs to be distance between me and those I lead. How can I lead them if there's not? But what we see in Carla Debow is that her ability to lead comes from having both connection and high expectations. But it can feel like you have to choose, like you can either connect with your team or have accountability, but not both. We want the connection that builds trust and the accountability that drives results. Naomi Franchetti: I was in the Air Force for twenty six years, and I was an ICBM, missile maintenance, nuclear weapons, munitions officer. McKinlay Otterson: This is Naomi Franchitti, a US Air Force commander who had to learn to create connection in a culture driven by extremely high expectations. Naomi Franchetti: When you think of your past experiences shaping who you are as a person and who I was as a officer in the military, you're dealing with nuclear weapons, you're dealing with ICBMs. It takes a lot of risk to to go outside the norm, to do something different because we're used to hearing things like don't do anything dumb, dangerous, or different. We just gotta get the job done. And and you're gonna do it my way. And that really shapes who you are as a leader. McKinlay Otterson: What was it like trying to lead in that environment? Naomi Franchetti: It was challenging because I was different. I wasn't a lot of female perspectives in missile maintenance. In fact, when I was at the Pentagon, we did the analysis and I wanted to say, oh, at the time, six percent females. That's it. And so what the community prized, what they valued, especially when I was a young lieutenant, is people that just talk the loudest or people that portray themselves as knowing it all. And that to me isn't my default, if you will. You know, I much more like to listen, have more empathy. And so I really felt that through my time in the military, I guess I could just got more and more authentically me. And I retired as the six forty nine ammunition squadron commander. That was my most authentic self when I was in that role. McKinlay Otterson: Why is that? Naomi Franchetti: Less interpersonal risk because I knew I could retire so I could be myself without repercussion of not getting promoted or whatever. I don't I don't have to worry about that anymore. That and so I think that also played a major role in me being authentic. McKinlay Otterson: Did you feel like, oh, this was good that I waited until now to be more authentic? Or did you feel like I could have been doing this sooner? Probably a little bit of both. When Naomi shared that she felt most authentic in her final command because she knew she could retire, I actually found myself feeling a bit discouraged and thinking, don't tell me that we have to wait until the end of our career to feel safe enough to connect with the people we lead. That's why I asked if she felt like she could have been more authentic earlier on, honestly, in the hopes that she'd say, yes, and I regret not doing it sooner. But what Naomi's story reveals is far more complicated. Her experience sheds light on the very real and inherent risk in connecting, especially in environments where accountability is everything. And when you're under pressure to deliver results, it's easy to believe that real connection is a luxury that you cannot afford. But when accountability isn't grounded in connection, the results often suffer. Naomi Franchetti: My first command was more about survival than thriving. I was thirty two weeks pregnant when I took commands. And so I thought, oh, great. I've got eight weeks to just really get in there, get into the organization, see what's going on, see what needs to be changed. But I was greatly surprised when at thirty four weeks, so only two weeks later, that I wasn't feeling well. And and my doctor said, “hey. Come in and get checked out to make sure everything's okay.” And as soon as they had strapped me up into the triage room, my water broke. And they said, I guess you're having your baby today. And I completely lost it. I was ill prepared at that point to be to be having a baby. I'm like, oh my god. I wasn't even through all my classes yet. I end up having my baby that day, and when she came out, she wasn't breathing. They're working on her. They got her breathing, and she spent three weeks in the NICU. When you talk about hard things that happen, that was one of them. My husband and I had a lot of infertility struggles. It took years to come to this point and and now we're in the NICU and, gosh, that was hard. It was really difficult. We made it out of the NICU, but one of the things that also happened, when I was on maternity leave, our organization had a suicide. And I had to make the decision, am I gonna come off of maternity leave after everything that happened with my daughter and and work with the organization, you know, to go to work through this? Or am I getting to stay on my maternity leave and continue to be with my daughter that got out of the NICU? McKinlay Otterson: Imagine that. Naomi became a commander for the very first time right before she became a mom. And now she's dealing with crises on both fronts. She almost lost her daughter and she did lose a member of her organization. And now she has people that expect things from her both professionally and personally. Naomi Franchetti: So the decision I made was to stay with my daughter. Okay? And my commander, he called me and said, are you gonna come back off your maternity leave to to deal with this? And I said, well, sir, you know, the organization has the ops officer. The organization has the chief and the first sergeant, but my daughter only has myself and my husband who's also active duty at the time. And and I think I need to be with my daughter. When I did come back from maternity leave, my commander, he said, I just want you to know that everybody is talking about the fact that you didn't come back and deal with the suicide that happened in your organization. And I just want you to know that it's out there. And, oh, it was hard. It was really hard to hear that. What it ended up doing for me was feeling like I was at risk a lot. I was at risk that I wasn't a good commander because I didn't put my organization first over my family. You know? Service before self. Right? Like, I should be I should be doing these things. But in reality, I wouldn't have changed that decision for anything. But I will say then it made it really difficult, especially dealing with that commander and the other individuals on on base knowing that they were talking about decision I I made and they wouldn't have made the same choice. I still feel it inside when I talk about that. So it's it's tough. McKinlay Otterson: At this point in Naomi's story, I'm thinking back to what she said earlier that she felt most authentic in her last command because she knew she could retire. And after hearing this experience, that makes perfect sense. Of course, she felt trepidation throughout her career to connect with people when this was her experience. But what's so powerful about Naomi's leadership is what happened when she returned to work. Naomi Franchetti: When I actually came back to work, the first sergeant said, hey. You need to tell everybody what you're going through. And I'm, oh, my man. That's a lot. That's a lot to be vulnerable in front of hundreds of people and tell them the challenges I just went through when I don't even know that I'm okay yet. Right. And so, he convinced me and I'm glad he did. We had commander's call. And once I shared that though, man, you talk about creating a safe space for others to open up. I had so many airmen come to me and say, thank you for sharing. I wanna tell you about something that I'm going through now. And so to me, showing that vulnerability, creating a safe space for others to share, doing the hard first step, sharing when you're not at your best or when you've gone through an emotional struggle or physical struggle, whatever. I mean, I think that's that's what impacted my leadership the most. And it wasn't the intention at the time. Honestly, it was just to share that, hey, This is why I didn't come back to deal with that. But in the end, it actually strengthened us as an organization and as a team. That's part of the reason why I was who I was and and how I continue to really focus on people, honestly. McKinlay Otterson: Naomi's experience highlights a reality that is present for all of us. There will always be some degree of risk in connecting with the people around us. And the degree of risk will vary based on a variety of factors, but it is true that you can never be free of risk. So if this is all true, why would I choose to make connections at all? Why would I choose to trust the people around me when there is no guarantee it will turn out well? Naomi gave us the reason why. She said, in the end, it actually strengthened us as an organization and as a team. And the research backs this up. A study by Korn Ferry found that fifty percent of CEOs report feeling lonely, and sixty percent of those leaders believe that loneliness negatively impacts their performance. And it's not just CEOs. Gallup has found that employees who have meaningful connections at work are nearly seventy percent more engaged. And studies like this resonate with me because this is me. I fall hard onto the connection side of leadership because connecting with people is enjoyable and it's comfortable for me. So when I hear that connection drives engagement and performance, I think, exactly. This is why I lead the way I do. And for a long time, I believed that was all I needed to be a good leader. But turns out, that is not the case. Because despite the connection I had with my team, I was still confronted with people who missed deadlines and didn't follow through on commitments, whose work was not to the standard they were capable of, all of which negatively impacted our team, the production, and the company. And instead of addressing it, I'd make excuses for them. I know they have a ton going on at home, or they're still wrapping their heads around this whole project, or I'd make excuses for myself. I should not have to address this with them. They're adults. Or this is what having a job means, that you get your stuff done. I remember one production in particular where we were behind schedule. People weren't executing in the way that we needed, which was having a domino effect on all the other aspects of the production. And instead of stepping in to have the needed conversations and clarify expectations, I just kept hoping that things would work themselves out. But unsurprisingly, they did not. And one day, it dawned on me that the cost of me not having these needed conversations was that the production would fail. And suddenly, recognizing that the end objective, the end result was in jeopardy because of my action or, really, my lack of action kicked me into gear because I knew I could do something to help this situation. I already had sensed that I needed to have these conversations, but I had avoided having them because I kept thinking, if I have these conversations, I'm gonna lose the relationship, the connection that I do have with these people. But that was a delusion because avoiding those conversations wasn't protecting anything, not the people, not the project. It was totally corroding the trust that did exist and our ability to reach our end goal, our objective. And when I finally had these conversations, there was relief on both sides because we finally had clarity. Clear expectations, clear ownership, clear understanding of what needed to happen next. And what surprised me most is that the connection I was so afraid of losing actually got stronger because our alignment eliminated our frustrations towards each other. Things still needed to change and deadlines still needed to be hit, but now we were talking about that openly instead of operating in silence. When I was focused only on connection, I thought I was protecting the relationship I had with my team. But really, I was setting up individuals and our team to fail. And when I finally had the courage to acquire excellence and accountability, the relationships with those people deepened. So if you're someone who leans heavily into connection like me, those hard conversations might feel like a threat to your relationships, but they're not. They're what make those relationships real. And if you're someone who is great at setting expectations but hesitant to connect, remember that the accountability you're working to develop will only stick if your people know that you're on their side. Now, back to the question we asked at the top of the show: How do I build real connection with the people I also have to hold accountable? We know that real connection has risk involved in it. Naomi's career in the Air Force helped us see this. Naomi Franchetti: That was my most authentic self when I was in that role because I knew I could retire so I could be myself without repercussion. McKinlay Otterson: And Carla Debow's career in the corporate world, well before she was a teacher, helps us see this as well. Carla Debow: The people I worked with for twenty years didn't know who I was. They have a clue. They had no idea who I was, but I thought, I have to tell them. McKinlay Otterson: It's human to guard ourselves. It's how we protect against disappointment, rejection, betrayal. But Carla Debow and Naomi discovered something surprising. When they stopped working so hard to shield themselves from potential and very real harm, they found meaning and productivity they didn't know was waiting to be tapped. Carla Debow: And they stunned me in return by sharing who they really were. All of us had stuff. We were human doings. We were actually human beings with heart with feelings and pain, and you just can't help but see people differently. You couldn't pick up the phone Monday and go as somebody that you knew had personal issues, was suffering at home with different kinds of things without even saying to them, well, how's it going at home? What's going on? Okay. Let's make this deal happen. Let's do this and move on. And that's exactly how fast things changed for all of us. McKinlay Otterson: It turns out we can't choose between connection and accountability. We either have both of them or neither of them. That's the challenge and the opportunity for us as leaders and just as humans. And the gift of getting to hear other people's experiences is that we get to extract the wisdom from them now. And the wisdom we learn from Naomi and Carla Debow is to skip the twenty year wait. Take action now. And if you're anything like me, you've had a person or a situation or maybe even a couple come to mind as you've been listening, along with a sense of something to do. So the invitation is to take that action. Follow through on your sense because it's that constant series of action that creates relationships full of connection and accountability. Leading Outward is produced by the Arbinger Institute. To have a conversation about how we can equip you to transform your leaders and organization, schedule a complimentary strategy session at www.arbinger.com. And whatever came to mind for you while you were listening, a conversation you've been putting off or feedback that needs to be shared, action you need to take, don't wait. Take that action because that's how change starts.
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